Rian Johnson & The Daniels Discuss Directing, Film Genres and New Projects

[ambient music] [film rolling]

If a good filmmaker makes a movie,

it's like they've burned the pirate ship into the sea.

If they've used every idea they have,

they're completely washed up on the shore,

empty of everything.

I was gonna leave off asking you what led you

to wanna do the genre that you do

with Everything, Everywhere, All at Once,

but that means that I would know what the genre is

of the movie that you did,

Everywhere, Everything, All at Once.

Well, as a genre wonk,

what would you, as an outsider,

what would you call our movie?

It's a family drama inside the shell of a sci-fi movie,

is how I would

kind of encapsulate it. Oh, okay.

That sounds about, that's pretty accurate.

That sounds fine. Yeah.

What would your answer be?

Well, I wanna steal an answer from the focus group.

Oh, okay!

I got to go to a focus testing that A24 did.

That sounds really fun.

I was so nervous that like,

that they would rip it apart.

So I wanted to be in the room so I could be like,

that kid's an idiot.

And they were so nice.

And one dude was like,

I think it's like an everything bagel.

And then like, a bunch of people were like,

it's so original.

I'm like, have you ever seen an anime?

Like, I think we just did a live action anime.

Anime or honestly, like a lot of the Korean films

from the auteurs of the past 20 years,

like they're constantly shifting tones

in a way that like, I hadn't seen before.

I saw like Old Boy or you know, The Host.

And so this film, the intention was always like

it's a family drama that gets interrupted by sci-fi

that then gets co-opted by the internet

swirled in this blender.

[people grunting]

One of the things that really surprised me

with the first Knives Out

was how you were able to obviously take all the tropes

of a of a murder mystery and just like you flipped it

like three or four times in that movie, which was so fun.

Like where does that start?

Is that something you find

or is it like outside in, you're kind of looking

like the mastermind puppet, the puppets master?

Well, I mean, I think for me,

the origin of it is actually like kind of going back

to the source of of why I wanted to do this

in the first place which is my love

of Agatha Christie's books.

And that's like, you don't have to go any further

for inspiration than to go back to the source.

You look at the characters in her books

are cracking jokes about detective cliches all the time.

What you're saying is you just stole it all.

You haven't come up with anything at all!

Us too.

Steal from the best!

[ambient music]

Do you know the ending before you start writing?

Because your stuff is such a weird engineered machine.

I have to, not just the ending,

I need to, so I, the first 80, maybe 90% of the process

for me of the real work is just working

in little notebooks outlining.

So I have the whole thing roadmapped out

before I sit down and type a single word.

Otherwise if I start typing too early,

I'll just get lost in the woods.

I just assume, are you guys similar

or do you guys start typing like-

I think we're still figuring out how to write,

so we feel- When you figure out,

please let me know!

we feel unqualified to be here,

but like we throw so much at the Wall.

there's like a chalkboard drawing

of like 20 different timelines

all stacked of every single universe.

I do think that like for us,

the structure is where the thesis of the film emerges.

Yep, yep, yep.

And so for us, like if it was an essay

our film is trying to say like,

look, the first half is a chosen one,

The Matrix style, hero's journey,

and the second half is just completely

a refracting explosion of that story.

You are no one.

You know, it's like we are all no one,

and yet maybe that there's still something

worth holding onto there.

And so from the very beginning,

we knew we wanted our film to,

as you said earlier, like eat itself, right?

It kind of tears itself apart.

Which was a really fun challenge to us,

because we didn't know how we were gonna pull it off.

I don't know how we're gonna do that.

We're not good enough filmmakers to do that yet.

But maybe by the time- Obviously you are.

No, no.

But by the time we were finished with it,

maybe we could figure it out.

[ambient music]

It makes me so happy to you to hear you

talking about structure as a element

of creative and thematic,

a creative and thematic element of it.

And there are writers who fear structure

thinking that it robs the soul

from some kind of inspired journey

or that it's a necessary evil

where it's something where it's just a cold,

kind of hard mass.

One of those screenwriting rules

that I I love to actually follow

is the fact that like the midway point

is when the film reveals itself to you.

And so like you look at Psycho,

I think of Psycho as a great example

of using structure for thesis.

The first half of the movie, you're following someone,

second half of the movie, they're dead.

And so you're like, oh, not even you are safe.

If you are the protagonist of your own story,

not even you are safe.

When you get in the edit,

how much does the writing process continue in the edit

with the movie like yours?

Like is it everything broken again

and then put back together in different ways?

Or do you very much stick to

what you thought it was gonna be

when it was on the page?

We stuck to it and then we just started diagnosing

problems galore and spent a year

trying to fix those problems

and stress testing like what we'd done.

And there were like, I feel like that was one of

the most humbling things about feature filmmaking

that we learned was just how much

of a unpredictable ripple effect there is.

It's an organic animal.

It's like diagnosing a cow.

Right, and you're like, oh my God

there's something that we changed in the first 10 minutes

that has now ruined the finale?

How did that happen?

[ambient music]

One question I wanted to ask

is just like your process on set with your crew,

with your cast.

We worked with Jamie Lee Curtis after she worked with you

on Knives Out and she had nothing

but amazing things to say,

specifically about like the way

that when they were shooting

or even when they weren't shooting,

no one actually went to their trailers,

because everyone just wanted to hang out.

Yeah.

What's your take

on the director's role in that?

On vibes, you know?

I mean, I think, well, the vibes like tone,

like you guys talked about tone with writing.

I feel like tone is also a huge part of directing

and it's setting the tone on set,

it's making it feel like

a comforting, warm, inviting, safe environment.

And also communicating.

Making sure everyone's oriented

and knows what we're doing and why.

And do all your prep work before,

so you show up with a plan and so you can be chill

and then those vibes kind of filter out into the set.

And then hopefully everybody's cool.

But yeah, it's that, and then being an audience

for your actors I think is the other just huge element.

I used to, you know, I grew up kind of making shorts

with my friends.

It was all about cool shots and all about like

films cool all about,

I'm gonna do this Coen Brothers-like shot

and I'm gonna do this and that.

And more and more and more and more,

just realizing I could stick the camera on a tripod,

light it with one light,

and shoot it in front of a brick wall,

and if what the actors are doing is working,

the audience is gonna be completely there.

The only thing that matters is making sure

the actors have what they need

to make those scenes sing, you know?

Yeah.

I'm excited to get to that phase of my career.

[group laughs]

[ambient music]

As a writer director, are there things

that you're still chasing after now?

'Cause I feel like, you know,

you've been doing this for a while.

Like I don't wanna fanboy out too much,

but I think I watched Brick when I was in college

and it was actually probably one of the biggest things

that made me think I could be a filmmaker.

Well, with your first film you figured out tone immediately

and I think tone is like 90% of the director's job.

And so what are you chasing now as a director?

'Cause, yeah, I'm so curious.

I mean, it is just getting better at the same stuff,

but the thing is that is not, I don't know,

but that's not actually true.

I mean, I guess every single,

I can't imagine mustering the energy

to do a new movie without feeling like

it was something that I had never done before

and never seen done before.

And my God, will this work?

It's like going back to when you were a kid

with your friends making movies and it's just,

if we tied the camera to a bungee cord

and threw it off the freeway bridge,

what will this look like?

And play it back.

It's that desire, that kinda mischievous,

like, can we get away with this?

How about you guys?

I mean, because you've so far,

I mean, with Swiss Army Man

and now with Everything, Everywhere, All at Once,

you guys have gone completely, I don't know,

it feels like especially with this film,

you've done everything it's possible to do in a movie.

What, and I mean,

the thing is though, I hope not!

But the thing is, regardless of that,

like that's maybe a stupid way of asking it,

because the reality is no matter,

I feel like no matter what you do it,

if a good filmmaker makes a movie,

it's like they've burned the pirate ship into the sea.

They've used every idea they have.

They're completely washed up on the shore

empty of everything hopefully,

otherwise they probably wasted our time.

So I know that's what you guys have done.

What gets you started in terms of the next one?

Where you start?

It's such a good metaphor.

Like literally you just give everything.

You're like the giving tree.

We did put everything into this movie

when we wrote it three years ago.

And so we've actually got like too many ideas.

New ideas.

We've had a lot of time

to like have new- To live life.

Live life and have new experiences

and read new books, but-

[Rian] Have new kids.

That's a big part of it.

You also wanna chase that scary thing.

We're definitely overthinkers

and it's definitely a tool of ours I think.

I think we overthink and that's part of our,

'cause there's two of us.

We're processing constantly.

I feel like a lot of time when you're starting off,

you want to create timeless art,

but that's actually like a terrible trap to chase that.

'Cause the more you chase it,

the less timeless it will become.

And really what you want to do is speak to the moment

and give the people something

to actually chew on and reflect upon.

I mean, I think one thing I will say though,

I mean I think, you know, when we were talking before

about what is the thing that gets you,

that you're chasing, I guess,

the reality is there's always gonna be something new

that we're dealing with.

As long as we have the guts to actually use that

as the fuel to make whatever is next,

it's gonna be something that's new to us.

It's gonna be something new that we're,

you know, creating, I guess.

Whatever you guys end up doing next,

I know it's gonna be mind blowing

and also come from your hearts

and having just gotten a chance

to have a couple conversations with you guys,

I can tell that's where your work comes from

and I can tell you guys are deep waters.

So I'm really excited to see what you guys do next.

Rian, thank you.

Cool. Thank you so much.

We'll see you here in a couple years.

Yeah, we'll meet back here.

Right here. [ambient music]

Leave the camera set up

and we'll get back. Something new and weird.